I just got spam from one "Amanda Rayworth-Kiernan”, a headhunter who apparently sent her spam to this list. I haven’t checked whether the list has an explicit anti-spamming policy, but I’m sure I’m not the only person here who doesn’t want headhunters abusing the list in this manner.
I got the same email.
She is *very* specific, and targeting attendees of the next LLVM
meeting, but doesn't seem to be recruiting for any particular
position, but just asking for a coffee break chat. I take it this is
more common in other less technical conferences, though.
I agree the list admin should at least send her a reminder of what the
list is for.
It’s a commercial message to a technical list. It’s spam.
My thoughts on the matter is that such an email is on topic provided that the person seeking employees is specifically looking for an employee for a position that uses LLVM or one of its related subprojects (e.g., Clang). My rationale is that we allow job postings on our lists for LLVM-related positions, and so this seems very similar. My problem with the post is that it does not specifically state that the person is seeking employees for an LLVM-related position; if we allow such posts, we should require that in the future.
That said, I'd like to hear what others think. Is my reasoning reasonable, or should we take a hard line against such posts?
My thoughts on the matter is that such an email is on topic provided that
the person seeking employees is specifically looking for an employee for a
position that uses LLVM or one of its related subprojects (e.g., Clang).
My rationale is that we allow job postings on our lists for LLVM-related
positions, and so this seems very similar. My problem with the post is
that it does not specifically state that the person is seeking employees
for an LLVM-related position; if we allow such posts, we should require
that in the future.
+1 to all that, and that's generally been the stance in the past. (I
believe Chris Lattner was called out a bit when he posted a Swift posting
without much tie in to LLVM, for example - and that was later
clarified/corrected to include the LLVM context in that posting)
That being said, is there any benefit to the /meeting/ list being publicly
postable? Perhaps, like llvm-bugs, it should be announce-only & leave the
discussion to the -dev lists? (most of the announcements are cross-posted
to the dev lists anyway, so I assume the meeting list is just for those
interested in the meeting, but not all the chatter?)
I disagree with this on the strongest possible terms. I have moderated mailing lists with tens of thousands of subscribers, and once you let the spammers in, they will proliferate.
I agree with David and Renato. I don’t think this classes perfectly as spam because it is targeted, however it’s borderline because perhaps it’s not quite targeted enough.
The mailing list has been active for a long time, this is not a bot and we can take remedial action if the list does get spammed, therefore I don’t think we should come down hard with the banhammer in this case.
The division between spam and on-topic messages isn’t whether the spam is targeted. It’s a commercial message to a technical list: IOW, it’s spam.
I would agree here to that this is borderline. I am neither registered or going to the conference, yet the email is directed to me like I am going.
I would prefer not to have these type of generic emails.
+1 to that - the moderation is manual anyway, so it’s not like we can’t pick/choose what meets our own human spam tolerance. We don’t just have to choose “let them all in or block everything that looks a bit like it could be spam”
(I think this instance doesn’t meet the bar for the sort of thing we want on the list (& I could see just outright banning the user as they don’t seem to be a contributing member or anything, or having an off-list conversation with them, I don’t feel terribly strongly in any direction) - not sure about what it means for this sort of thing in person at conferences)
The division between spam and on-topic messages isn’t whether the spam is
targeted. It’s a commercial message to a technical list: IOW, it’s spam.
That is decidedly /not/ the bar we as a community have decided on. We
accept/want to allow relevant job postings to the LLVM community. We've
done this before and will continue to do so. This helps the LLVM community
proliferate - it allows hobbyist/part time contributors to find jobs on the
project and become more active contributors.
it isn’t a job posting. It’s a “come meet the spammer” invitation. I allowed job postings on the Cocoa-dev list when I moderated it, I did not allow anything like this.
This list was created for LLVM dev meeting communication and to ask questions about meetings. It is not for job postings or recruiters to advertise. It is a very specific list and low traffic.
I will discuss with the poster.
We have historically allowed job postings on llvm-dev or cafe-dev as long as they are LLVM/Clang specific. This is different than a generic recruiter email but yes one could make parallels. These job postings have been pretty small in number but if they increased, I would suggest a new list that allows job ads and *potentially* recruiter postings like this. I haven't seen a need for this yet but it's open for discussion.
Just to hear where I am coming from. I am speaking as the person who created the list (and one of the moderators) for a very specific purpose and also as a tool in planning the developer meetings. If someone wants to discuss further about allowing these sorts of emails to this specific list, I will of course be open to discussion. However, it was not created for this purpose and the posting is not within the guidelines for this specific list.
Hopefully that made sense
Actually, the email didn’t go to the list. It appears she took the membership list and emailed everyone directly. I’ve modified the list settings to make the subscription member list private and will double check all the other mailing lists.
+1 also - many thanks for your efforts in keeping this list technical and our email addresses private and spam-free.
Except for the part where the targeting a lie. I got the email and am
not attending EuroLLVM.
That's because she got the list of emails from the devmeeting list,
not the EuroLLVM list.
And it's why I suggested that we do not display our subscribers to
other subscribers in any of the LLVM lists.